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What happened to intellectual honesty?

Discussion in 'EverQuest II General Discussion' started by Benito, Jan 25, 2020.

  1. Benito

    Benito Banned

    It looks like I was ignored after a fair, merit-based debate.

    What happened to intellectual honesty?

    Continue to live in the world where you only seek after people who agree with you. "Illusion" is the buzz word for the day.

    If people continue to spout off conspiracy theories, expect to be confronted about it.

    Yours truly, Benito.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  2. Benito

    Benito Banned

    Transcript of my debate with Gillymann. You judge for yourselves if it was not academic.

    Gillymann said:
    “Of course, no one is forced to buy spell research, but if they want to run heroics or raid, they may feel compelled to pay for some or all ability upgrades if they haven't been able to obtain them in-game.”

    Benito's Response: I think your underlying assumption - completion (or top end) requirement - is suspect. EQ2 players are accustomed to not being "end game" or having all or most best-in-slot or best-in-abilities. If anything, there are individual opportunity costs and trade offs as well as augmentation among group or guild members.

    It is not necessary to do good or even feel good with max Celestial spells.

    For example, on EQ1, there are chase tradable loot drops (raid quality equivalent from previous expansion) that would be nice to have but are not required at all. No one regards it as manipulation even though you can buy Krono to buy these items off of other players.

    There is no requirement in this game to have all or most end game abilities (or gear).

    Gillymann said:
    “What eq2 does is combine some character-power leveling system with scarcity, and where that scarcity is often enabled by rng mechanics. These probabilities are 100% a hidden mechanic, and what they do give people the "illusion" they have reasonable alternatives when in fact they do not.

    Back to our example of expert spells, what eq2 has done is set up a system of conditional probabilities for recipes. First, you need to get an eligible overseer quest. Then you need the right chest to drop. Then you need a bonus chest to the right chest to drop. Then you need a book to drop. And lastly, you need the book you want to drop. Even if you ignored the last step and counted on broker inventories, just the probability of ANY book dropping is so absurdly right of the decimal as to be laughable.

    In general, eq2 relies heavily on creating illusions by manipulating appearances. This can be observed in PL's and traced all the way down processes in which information is connected sales/revenue.”

    Benito's Response: You are attributing pernicious or malicious motives to Darkpaw Games. One can argue that the EQ2 team's model is to allow for a wide range of specialization and/or mastery. The RNG aspect enhances with diversity of both decision making and in-game power with regards to player progression. Furthermore, you can go to other players and broker for components that you may need which enhances that experience.

    The marketplace's prices are so outrageous that I doubt people are dropping $100s on spell upgrades. You are talking to adults and very few impulsive, instant gratification kids.

    Gillymann said:
    “This year the dominant character power mechanic is rooted in abilities and the level increase. Next year, it might be ascensions and so forth.

    The character power element changes each year, but the mechanic is always the same: the cash shop is positioned as an alternative to in-game scarcity, and hidden rng mechanics give people the illusion they have reasonable alternatives.”

    Benito's Response: Even assuming that players cannot forgo end game capabilities, Daybreak/Darkpaw understands that they can't undermine/cheapen the durability of various systems (e.g. regular spells, Ascensions). Instead of attributing a sort of conspiracy theory (malicious motive), using Occham's Razor, the simplest and most likely explanation is that they are moving on from old systems (where many people are satisfied) to new systems (new spells, new goals).

    Gillymann said:
    “.And also, if you have no need of increased character power soon or even at all, then the shop is irrelevant to your goals.”

    Benito's Response: This I agree with. This statement undermines your entire argument.

    It is less about conspiracy theories (malicious motives to cash in) and more about disliking the optional but steep power curve (game model).

    So what do you think of the DarkPaw Games announcement? | Page 7 | EverQuest 2 Forums
     
  3. Benito

    Benito Banned

    One individual seemed to be frustrated after my response. This individual did not expect scrutiny, an opposing voice, and effective counterarguments. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
  4. Meneltel

    Meneltel Active Member

    What? I cant be negative and filthy? Bah! *throws a full strength temper tantrum at Feldon's feet, including kicking his shins with my hob-nailed boots*
     
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  5. Benito

    Benito Banned

    Someone is qualifying all of their statements now. Glad I had a in role in shaping their thought process.
     
  6. Feldon

    Feldon Administrator Staff Member

    Commenting on the official forums is like trying to eat with both hands tied behind your back. Please don't pretend differently.
     
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  7. Benito

    Benito Banned

    Dreamweaver is a nice moderator. I put out fair and academic arguments in rebuttal. We could have proceeded to debate on the merits. The individual decided to put me on ignore. That is not intellectual honesty on his part.
     
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  8. RhodrisNZ

    RhodrisNZ Geographically Challenged

    Again, I find the 'ignore' function on the board to be a truly delightful and beautiful thing.....
     
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  9. Benito

    Benito Banned

    I thought some EQ2Wire forum folks prided themselves on intellectual honesty and confronting the ugly truth (even if it's a differing opinion)....A bit disappointed honestly.
     
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  10. Feldon

    Feldon Administrator Staff Member

    I'm just curious. How many ways are you going to find to call us all dumb? Normally I wouldn't care, but I've got some money on the over-under on this.
     
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  11. Feldon

    Feldon Administrator Staff Member

    Since I'm sure it will get deleted, I thought I'd preserve my post from the official forums here:

    Daybreak Games increasing reliance on the Marketplace on top of a subscription and expansion model is not a "conspiracy theory". The amount of player power available through the Marketplace has ticked upwards in a steady climb. This is as measurable and unassailable a fact as increasing ocean temperatures and shrinking ice sheets. People are literally paying hundreds of dollars, not for endgame raiding, but to participate in anything beyond the casual heroic content. When the highway shrinks to 1 sluggish lane and then the 3 lanes adjoining it are moving at a fast clip but require a toll, some people will pay. Claiming that that isn't a toll road or recharacterizing it in fancy terms doesn't change anything.

    Over the 12 years I wrote about EQ2, SOE, and then Daybreak, it was rarely maliciousness. It was instead a lack of foresight of the consequences of corporate decisions. The company has been genuinely surprised by player reactions throughout its 20 year history. From rebooting EverQuest servers to thwart players killing a raid target that players had spent months planning, to trying to make a battle royale Planetside game. Daybreak is pushing the Marketplace as far as they can and will continue to do so until the resistance > revenue.

    Your obvious baiting and brazen bullying has been noticed. Enjoy the sanctity these forums provide, comforted with the knowledge that anyone who would rebut your attacks vociferously would surely receive a forum vacation.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
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  12. Sweatypie

    Sweatypie Active Member

    Defending Darkpaw games....

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Benito

    Benito Banned

    You should have waited for my response here before losing face on the official forums.
     
  14. Benito

    Benito Banned

    The truth shall set you free...

    What happened to the truth? Or is this all ideological vitriol? I guess EQ2Wire forums is biased after all - you all won't hear anyone out. Very sad....
     
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  15. Benito

    Benito Banned

    According to my statistical analysis, 3-5+ consistent likes on any EQ2Wire member post on the official forums means a conspiracy against me. Yikes.
     
  16. Mermut

    Mermut Active Member

    3-5 people sharing the same opinion makes a conspiracy?

    Pet peeve from a mathematician: 3-5 people is far too small a sample to perform any sort of actual statistical analysis. Please don't pretend to be using math when you're really using anecdotal evidence.
     
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  17. Benito

    Benito Banned

    Another tongue-in-cheek point and a good natured nudge of Gillymann's point deriving motive from "statistical analysis."

    I appreciate the exchange we just had on the official forums Mermut! You are a stand up individual.
     
  18. Benito

    Benito Banned

    By the way, I don't need to be anyone's friend here.

    I am just glad that the "Feldon/EQ2Wire crew" is a little more careful in their statements. For that, hopefully that is the final synthesis from today's exchanges.
     
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  19. Meneltel

    Meneltel Active Member

    Well, since you don't need to be anyone's friend here, don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya on the way out.
     
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  20. Benito

    Benito Banned

    Tell me how you really feel.
     

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