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Why EQ2 needs to move to a Pay to Win or Pay to Play Expansions Model for its survival

Discussion in 'EverQuest II General Discussion' started by Inire, Dec 28, 2016.

  1. Inire

    Inire Not really an evil duck, just misunderstood.

    I would much rather they took my money than my time.

    And since DBG/CN cannot spend MY time, I am betting they will be more interested in my money.
     
  2. Feldon

    Feldon Administrator Staff Member

    Level 100 tradeskill required for Epic Weapon 2.0.

    You were saying?
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  3. Inire

    Inire Not really an evil duck, just misunderstood.

    I have nothing to say about that, aside from the *eyeroll*

    and of course, the fact that bonuses aren't paid in time. i wish they were... i'd take a few extra years of life.
     
  4. Shmogre

    Shmogre Active Member

    Regarding the zero-commission broker box, there was definitely unhappiness until people realized that it wasn't the super advantage it seemed to be at first. At the prices that would make a tidy profit, people tend to purchase direct from houses and bypass the broker fees anyway (where available). The main advantage it gives now is that it allows items listed for the same base price to show up higher in the broker list than ones with broker fees attached, and people seem to be learning to look for that trick.

    It's another "threading the needle" fine-line-walk: it's an advantage, but one that can be mitigated using in-game methods. That line is getting very, very fine, but it's still arguably there (at least I imagine that's what the rational behind it might have been).


    The "level 100 crafting needed for epic 2.0" is a different story. Part of me thinks it's an interesting tactic; that for years crafters have been hearing "crafting's not so hard, you can level a toon in a day, why should you get [paid|tipped|rares|runes|etc.] for something so easy", so it's intriguing to see that being put to the test. But I think ultimately it's a bad decision, especially given the sinking morale around this expansion and how it has become such a blatant time sink. I hope it's one they can change soon (at least allow commission crafting if there must be level 100 crafting, thus keeping crafters relevant while not forcing an entirely different playstyle on non-crafters).

    (I suppose that on the plus side, level 100 crafter means the ability to see and harvest the shadeweave bud rares... o_O )
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  5. Inire

    Inire Not really an evil duck, just misunderstood.

    For the zero-commission broker box, I purposefully don't have a house on the toons I sell high priced items on. I put this box on them, and make the money for myself. With this tactic, and high priced items like Kronos, I make significant price advantages.

    Would you agree that the advantage of a 0 commission box is an advantage, however small you think the impact is? If so, you have already accepted pay to win in a small way. If not, I get it, no worries. It is hard for you as a player and purchaser of services to give good constructive feedback to a company that, at the end of the day, will do what it wants to, sometimes over your strenuous objections.

    Sometimes the only way to vote is with your feet.

    In terms of the 100 crafting needed, I will take that up on the time sink thread that you created.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Shmogre

    Shmogre Active Member

    Interesting question. In the example you gave (putting your zero-com box on toons with no house), that is only advantageous if the next person also doesn't have a house. If you list something for 10k at 0 fee, and someone else lists at 9k with 20% fee but has a house, it negates your advantage because I can go to their house and buy it cheaper with no fee.

    But yes, there is currently an advantage because zero-fee items list above items with the same base price but have a broker fee. So there's that fine line again: it does provide an advantage, but that advantage can be overcome in many cases. I'd say the zero-com box makes it easier to capitalize on people's impatience, lack of awareness, or innocence about game mechanics, which is an advantage. I'm still not convinced it's pay-to-win, though, since there are ways currently available in-game to circumvent the features...but it's right on the knife edge.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  7. Gaealiege

    Gaealiege Member

    I can tell you that the majority of people flatout are not going to waste time traveling to a house to save a few hundred or even a few thousand platinum.

    I sell shinies and gear nearly every single day. Many of those for hundreds of thousands of platinum and that 0% broker box entirely ****s my selling experience. When a shiny sells for 200k, someone matching my price requires that I drop my price to 179,999 in order to appear above them on the broker.

    With a hugely inflated economy, the majority of purchases are being made directly from the broker. People aren't taking the trouble to travel to the opposing alignment's city to save a few thousand platinum. They're buying from whoever is at the top of the list.

    In order for me to outsell someone on my hypothetical shiny, I must lower the market by 10%. Each undercut functions this way. So you lower by 10%, they match, and you must drop another 10%. It quickly destroys the market for items and relegates control to those with the pay-to-win box.

    I absolutely hate that box.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Adevil

    Adevil Guest

    Oh, but there was. And it was studiously scrubbed off the official forums with the delete & ban mop.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  9. Malleria

    Malleria Member

    The problem as I see it is if the choice of time or money were implemented with the time sinks remaining exactly as they are... that'd be ok-ish. But inevitably some bean counter would say "hey, lets increase the time needed to "encourage" more people to spend". At that point it becomes a big honking NOT ok.

    See every mobile game. Eg Clash of Clans. You start playing and it's fast and fun - you build stuff in 5-10 min, get free coins to buy nice stuff etc. After a couple of days it starts taking hours to build buildings - not so fun, but doable, you just check every few hours instead of every 10 min. After a week things are literally taking a week+ to complete unless you spend coins to speed it up, and surprise surprise those free coins have started to dry up. The exact same thing will happen in EQ2 if they follow your plan, I guarantee it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. Lucus

    Lucus New Member

    the closet thing EQ2 is to 'pay to win' is kronos, anyone can buy them and then sell them for plat and then use that to buy SLR gear, other mechanics are pay to advance (researching spells for example).


    besides what is there to 'win'? EQ2 isn't a shooter with timed or win condition, how exactly can you 'win' in absence of a clearly designed win mechanic?


    if they start selling gear on the marketplace (heroic and raid) then they have to balance heroics and raids around that gear(making them harder for lesser geared players) and it also makes a problem with grouping worse (players with good gear but no real idea how to play).


    you can give a random player raid gear but if they don't know their class they will fail just as hard if they were in crappy gear the only difference is how fast they die and how terrible their dps is.

    seperating the player base is a bad idea, other games have tried this including command and conquer series. it was terrible that if you didn't happen to have a specific pre-order bonus from one store and you wanted to play mutliplayer and the server cycled to a map that was in the pre-order bundle you got booted from the server.


    if you buy an expansion you should be able to play it subscription or not, otherwise it's a buy in rental agreement.

    sure you can buy some power and time advantage (research purchases with DBC and SLR) but it's not that bad really as it would be if you could buy gear directly off the marketplace that is more powerful then drops merely because the company wants the most money possible (and screw player balance and enjoyment).

    you get a position where someone who is wealthy can buy all raid gear for every slot and completely fail in groups.

    EQ2 is pay to advance faster, it should never become pay to win.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  11. warlock829

    warlock829 New Member

    so i been dabbling around about coming back to the game after 2 years off, and saw eq2wire has forums, so i joined to come check it out. The first thing i see is someone babbling this game should be pay to win. Seems to me that this person is a casual player who wants to have the best in slot gear because they don't have the dedicated time to put into the game. so in short they want to log in go to the bank put money in their account and buy the best in slot item and say, WOOOHOOOO look what i just bought..I am sorry but it should never work that way EVER. I understand you wanting to fuel daybreak to make possibly a better game. but as myself a 12 year vet playing this game as casual, casual hardcore, and hardcore player, NO you should'nt be able to buy stuff with real money not the best in slot game. take Rift for example 1800$ to get a full set of T2 raid gear.. That is insane first off, second off just because you bought the gear makes you a great player? i don't think so. i know there is for a fact players from a long time still playing this game putting their heart and soul into it everyday to be the best, how insulting is that to them. i myself who occasionally pops on from time to time look at this as a insult. this is not the answer it already has a pay to win system through krono's and people who can sell gift cards for expacs and station cash items. So asking something like this to where you can log into game and buy stuff with cash i got 1 ultimate answer for you. Go play Rift you are welcome to spend over 500$ for a half of set of t2 raid gear, enjoy
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  12. Gaealiege

    Gaealiege Member

    Pay-to-advance is just a pedantic bit of nonsense. "I didn't punch you in the face, I applied pressure to your cranial region!"

    You cannot obtain adept or master tier ascension spells through gameplay. You can buy them with your credit card. That is directly pay-to-win.

    I don't care how you spin it.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  13. Shmogre

    Shmogre Active Member

    You can research them for no cost, though, correct?

    (edit to add: I know you can research them. Just making a point. ;))
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. Mermut

    Mermut Well-Known Member

    Yup. You only 'have' to pay if you're impatient.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Bendigeidfran

    Bendigeidfran New Member

    Pay-to-win requires acquisition of an advantage that is not available to 'ordinary' players - while players can purchase Krono and sell for huge amounts at the moment and buy the spells from the broker, or DBC to research spells instantly, those advances are available to ordinary players over time (with the patience to research normally, or let the 500 monthly DBC stockpile). An edge to advancing? Yes. Pay to win? No.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Drinksalot

    Drinksalot New Member

    you can
     
  17. Drinksalot

    Drinksalot New Member

    I have paid for upgraded asc. spells with stock piled DBC. on my main that is my prerogative. what the hell else am I going to spend the 500 on a month.. I don't decorate, I don't care about mounts or fluff. I use it to make my toon better.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Gaealiege

    Gaealiege Member

    No, there is clearly a point where that argument doesn't hold any water. Each spell is a forced wait of 1.25 months across both research-only tiers. That's a full year, per ascension class, of forced waiting.

    The fact that your credit card buys you immediate power, within a system designed to make paying the most likely path of advancement, is pay-to-win.

    This notion that "you don't win anything" is pure tripe. Within the contest of competitive play (that is to say...100% of MMOs), paying for an advantage is precisely paying-to-win.

    The argument from the opposition is ludicrous in the extreme. One imagines the same individuals will claim that marketplace-purchased T4 gear isn't pay-to-win because technically anyone can acquire it by clearing the most challenging content in the game.

    Given that line of reasoning, nothing within the game can be pay-to-win given the most remote possibility of acquiring it through normal gameplay. Best mount in the game has a 0.00000001% chance to drop or you can use your credit card to acquire now? Not pay-to-win according to this version of "logic".

    Who is buying this horseshit?
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  19. Malleria

    Malleria Member

    Yea, I completely agree the ascension spell tiers situation is BS. Having experts drop in game but not adepts is a clear cash grab.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Appreciation Appreciation x 1
  20. Lucus

    Lucus New Member

    pay to win has no objective meaning. you are the first person to claim EQ2 is play to win that even has an argument(that i am aware of) that has any real basis in the game (essentially buying ascention spells makes competitive groups/raids hit harder and potentially put them ahead as a grp).

    any other argument for pay 2 win is invalid as far as i am concearned given the only way to 'win' is to have a player driven competitiveness like raiding content.

    i still wouldn't call it pay to win as you can be patient and wait it out while people who paid have their advantages erode.

    a bad player in good gear with good level abilities will still be bad, they might do more dps but they are still bad, i'd take an undergeared player that knows what they are doing and carry them in a heroic before grouping with the former.

    even with your argument EQ2's being pay to win is still entirely subjective since many still disagree exactly what pay to win means (not surprising as games have different things you can pay for and this affects their perception based on the mechanics of them).
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017

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