Why EQ2 needs to move to a Pay to Win or Pay to Play Expansions Model for its survival

Money keeps eq2 running.

Do you like the game? Then you should be OK with pay to win. It lets the company Daybreak Games fuel the game off people who do pay to win.

There are two "currencies" that can be spent to obtain improvements in this game. Time. Money.

If there is a way for some people to earn the improvements through time spent, and other ways for people to earn the improvements through money spent, what is the big deal?

Boo-hoo? You do not have money? I understand that, you can spend the time to earn the improvements.

Boo-hoo? You do not have time? I understand that, you can spend the money to earn the improvements.

Have both? Well, then you are fortunate. Try not to tell anyone else that, because they tend to get very mad.

Have neither? Why are you spending time reading a games forum, much less playing a game.

I know the argument that games are an escape from reality and that "the real world" intruding in them is horrible awful and it should not happen, but the real world exists, and companies need money to spend time on games.

 

Pay to win isn't just about making money for the game owner.. it changes the tone of the game. There are plenty of ways people who WANT to spend extra money on the game can: Kronos, appearance gear, mounts, house items, even shortening research time.
Turning the game into a pure 'if you have money you're guaranteed to be better then people who can't/don't spend the money is bad for the 'community' of the game, in my opinion. It creates a clear divide the haves and the have nots based solely on the size of your disposable income. There is no situation I can think of where that is a good thing (in terms of the health and amity of the community) for a multi-player game.

Many of us play the game as much for the people and community as for the game itself.
Crazy extreme example, but we had a raid member that LITERALLY had a stroke in the middle of our raid. None of us had any contact information for him or even knew his full name, but we were able to pull together various bits of info and get emergency responders to him within an hour.. from across the country. He lived alone and had no local family, so his condition likely wouldn't have been discovered for some time. That's the kind of community that makes this game great and it is just that sense of community that doesn't do well in a pay to win environment.

 

want to be clear here.

in this theoretical model that I am discussing, there would be a way for you to spend one of the two currencies.

time:
grind out that faction and buy stuff with in game coins.
beat that raid mob and get that drop!
kill that rare and get the item!
finish that quest and get that reward!

real world money:
pay for the item and get it.

There would be no difference between the two. the only difference is the the real world currency YOU spend.

That eliminates the argument that the people spending money are getting something "better" than the people who spend the time.

Will fill in more later, have to finish real life stuff.

 

I understand what you mean.. and it doesn't change my opinion.
Especially since so much of the gear is time/RNG/faction locked.
It would also seriously mess up itemization. The devs clearly attempt to balance the time invovled to earn the gear with it's power. If it is all instantly available to anybody who can open their wallet.. that will mess up things on the game-play side.

 

This would mess up itemization perhaps more than it already is? There is very little balance/scaled itemization aside from solo > T1 Heroic > T2 Heroic > T3 Heroic > T1 Raid > T2 Raid > T3 Raid with each tier having a few more item points to make vaguely higher stats (not accurate levels, as i know some T1 Raid stuff isn't much better than the top Heroic stuff, just a basic example)

There is another issue here, which I see commonly in this community:

How does the fun another person is having affect you in any way?

So what if someone else bought the T3 raid gear? It could be tagged in a way (color, or with a "crafter" tag of DBG or something) in such a way that anyone would know that they did not do the zone. Besides, you could tell that they did not do the zone by looking at their achievements.

 

For players of near equal skill, gear can be the difference between succeeding or not succeeding in a zone. In a multiplayer game, other people you interact with definitely do affect your game play.

 

"How much money do they need to give us the current quantity of content? How is $180 a year not enough?"

$180/year is enough to give you the current quantity/quality of the content that you currently have. Seems like a statement, looking for value vs. cost? If your question is more...

"I pay $180/year and I do not feel like the current quantity of content is enough for what I am paying"

Then that is a personal value question. Personally, I pay a significant amount more, and I feel that what I am paying for is for the most part a good thing. There are a few things that I question about the value of the game, but I enjoy the way and things that I play in the game.

"If this were an indie studio, the math would work. The reason they keep asking for more and more is cause of the cost of free realms, agency, EQ next, landmark, h1z1 zombie game, matrix online, etc. And massive overhead of marketing etc."

First, I have to chuckle at marketing. You and I have had a number of conversations about the shortcomings of DBG Marketing Feldon.

In terms of the lost services (c.f. Matrix Online, Vanguard, etc). We will just agree to dump them as dead. Sunk costs. Negative value items that the company has to absorb as losses and recoup as other costs. This is important, because it increases the load that the company Daybreak Games brings as loss to the Columbus Nova company. CN wants to make money. This is important for later. But I will totally agree with you here, the reasons that a company asks for money is to recoup losses on other products or services that they owned, acquired or offered.

"Look at big budget games from AAA studios. $40 for a complete game"

Big budget games from AAA studios are projects that have fixed length, fixed projects. They tend to have fixed costs internally, or at least initially they start with a fixed budget. If they have online components, the tendency is to build either free servers or to have limited time that the server systems are offered. Basically, these types of games are fixed costs with projected profits. What level of content comes out for them on a regular basis? Perhaps a DLC that you reup your payment for? They are not 15 year games.

"EQ2 is still held back by a 15 year old engine so it will never look like modern games. And the cash investment to get the game launched just have been paid back by now."

The first one is something that all MMO engines that last more than a few years will encounter. UO is the only one that I can think of that did any engine update. I am sure there are others that I am not thinking of that will be brought up. Could there be a solution to this? The game that brings in the most money gets the most attention, and has the greatest value to the company.

In terms of just now paying back the costs to get the game launched, well, that is part and parcel of owning an MMO. These costs are over time, and have high initial loads. But reducing the amount of systems involved (server consolidation), releasing systems from leasing agreements, and moving to better systems does actually help on the balance sheet for costs.

MMO's are really expensive to keep going in terms of technical and human costs...

"With the huge cuts to customer service, QA, the dev teams, etc. With the transition from Oracle to Enterprise DB. With the elimination of costly translations from English into German and Japanese. With the consolidation from 18 servers to 6. With the elimination of an outside musician and outside artist to paint the expansion art, EQ2's costs have never been this low."

All these things are very true! And it only shows MORE value of the EQ2 game to CN! I fail to see the point of this line of argument. Are you saying that we should only pay exactly the value of the support of the game and the salary? Because companies do not operate like that. Companies try to provide revenue to their stockholders or owners.

"The problem with selling player power is that #1 you take away any sense of accomplishment. And #2 you start doing the gameplay vs financial cost calculations in your head and realize you are just paying money for pixels that don't mean anything on someone else's computer they can delete any time they want."

In terms of argument #2 you bought into that one the day you clicked accept on any modern game's EULA. Moot point in my opinion.

In terms of taking away a sense of accomplishment, who are you to say that my sense of accomplishment is anywhere near yours? Your own argument to me years ago was "what difference does other people's way of having fun make to YOU" and you were RIGHT. I conceded that then, and have come to agree. What happens if my sense of accomplishment is not based around getting the gear, but instead is based around helping my community of other players in the guild kill the mob we have been working on all week? Or what if it is based around having that one piece of gear that NEVER DROPPED off that one mob I DID kill for 4 months? Or what if it is based around finding all the shinies in a zone my solo only gear would not let me survive?

"At this point, this sounds like boat ownership. It's a hole in the water you're just throwing money into with nothing to show for it. I can justify $15 a month and $40 a year for x amount of quality, tested, supported content. I can't justify much more, and if I could, would it mean anything anymore?"

It is boat ownership. The experience of using and enjoying the "boat" with friends and family GREATLY outweighs the money you throw into it. Some boats have issues.

Have you ever watched Deadliest Catch? If not, I recommend it. It is about running a boat as a business. Right now, EQ2 is sort of the Cornilla Marie. We would like it to be the Northwestern. But it is not right now.

In terms of your x amount of quality, tested and supported content, and in terms of my glossing over those issues earlier, I agree that there has been a decrease in the quality, testing and support. I know that when making decisions as a company, the way to save costs is to cut out as much as possible as soon as possible, then build back up the SUCCESSFUL things.

This line, building back up the SUCCESSFUL things, is the crux of my argument.

Companies build up and improve upon their successful products. Success at the end of the day is determined by the profit that the company makes on that product.

To become the most successful product that DBG offers, Everquest 2 must increase its profits. If we, as players, are to get an increase in quality, testing and support that we all want, Everquest 2 must be successful. It must have profits.

The cheapest and easiest way to drive profits up is to sell items that players desire on the marketplace, items that take as little time as possible to make. Since Itemization happens anyways during almost every event, why not simply add a bit that says "available on the marketplace" and price those pixels, those ones and zeroes, up?

 

Gear is COMPLETELY a huge advantage for everyone in this game. No doubt about it.

Game play is very much dependent on other players as well.

I fail to see your point here, it seems like you are agreeing with what I said?

If your guild is struggling on one last mob, and you as a player think "I could up my heals with item x" and you decide as yourself to purchase that item off the marketplace, how does that affect the fun that other people have? Are you in the game to beat the mob? Or are you in the game to get the item?

If you are in the game to get the item, simply do not purchase it.

If you are in the game to kill the mob, to help the community, but your guild DOES kill the mob, and DOES feel that sense of community and accomplishment, I fail to see how that fun is ruined by the purchase.

Edit: removed text that came off as being snarky and shitty.

 

AHHHH...

OK, actually, we both agree on this. The history with SOE (those ~12 years) was that the profitable games helped the shitty games stay on life support. This was due to the way SOE was historically managed. There was a lot of emotion and cronyism involved in those franchises based on who the guy in the corner office liked. That is a problem with companies driven by personalities, not by drivers like profits or success. SOE had long been a drifting component of Sony, and it was ripe to be culled and have its overhead (including some of that upper management) removed, leaving just the profitable systems.

CN has shown remarkable quick responses in killing off franchises that are not doing well. And I suspect that this valuation of the bottom line will continue.

SMART businesses reinvest in the things that are showing successes. Time will tell if DBG/CN is smart or not.

Some of the onus of making CN believe that EQ2 is worth keeping around is on the management within DBG. They should be frequently and loudly proclaiming the value that EQ2 brings to the company. They should be showing at company meetings the pie charts showing how much of the company profits are around EQ2 as a driver. Discussions of how bonuses based on profit/performance numbers being driven by profits from EQ2 should be brought up, as private owners tend to be focused on the money aspects. Conversations about how much more profit could be gained with a few simple changes would go over gang busters, I am betting.

So far CN has also shown that they are more willing to grow via acquisition (c.f. DDO/LOTRO) than by announcing/launching other properties.

Here is the other shoe, in terms of those acquisitions. Both of those games had gear you could buy. Both of those games kept their company afloat. Both of those games turned profits. Companies get acquired to bring in either the properties/services they own, and/or the people that run the properties/services. I am betting that it was both in this case. If CN did due diligence on the DDO property, they must be aware of the pay to play model of zones in expansions within DDO. I am betting that was what Holly "Windstalker" Longdale was alluding to in the producer's letter.

https://eq2wire.com/2016/12/22/december-2016-eq2-producers-letter/

"We are well into our planning for 2017 and have some exciting plans, including a very cool concept for our next expansion that we are running through now. Big plans for Norrath!"

So, Luclin 2017 with pay per instance expansion. Ya heard it here first.

 

People will buy things. This only drives home my point, as expansion profits tend to be once a year, while Marketplace items or adding items to the marketplace over time will be evergreen for profits.

In terms of the pay-per-instance, the deal was that the person who OPENED the instance had to own that instance. ANYONE in the game could open the instance on a solo level, which offered solo style gear. Normal instances could only be opened once you completed solo. Heroic instances could only be opened once you had completed normal. Epic instances required ownership. The best gear, and the most interesting challenges are in the Epic instances.

There are hints and echos of this type of tier system already in Everquest 2 with Solo/heroics/heroic hard mode zones. And, of course, there are already raid zones that are copypasta from heroics, with different mobs.

In terms of the Dungeon Finder? eh... it is definitely a problem in both of our opinions.

 

They need to ditch F2P. If this involves consolidating servers, so be it. It's harsh, but giving the computing space to people that have no intention of putting any money into the game is wasteful. The people more likely to buy DGC, to buy higher tier xpacs, to throw money at the game, are the ones already subbing. Trim stuff down, paywall the game properly again, get out of this silly cash shop mentality. F2P is a horrible model that makes companies look like they don't value their games enough.

 

If they do something like this, it should be on its own server with no transfers off, or else there will be much butthurt.

I pitched them a similar idea months ago and there were no takers.
[Suggestion] - Open a new Station Exchange/Player Auction server | EverQuest 2 Forums

But like Feldon said, there's no guarantee that any income from such an endeavor would even benefit EQ2.

 

There has been very little butt hurt over stuff that I thought players would throw fits over. For example, the $139 option of this last expansion included a 100 slot 0 broker fee box, and there was no fits. No rage. Let us be perfectly clear, that is PAY TO WIN with DIRECT competitive consequences against other players in game. They cannot make as much as you without that item, end of discussion.

I like the concept of the player auction/station exchange server. DBG will not go for it in the original format, as it required a third-party and had all sorts of nightmares over who received the money. And your idea was a bit tongue in cheek IMHO.

I think the question of income being fed into EQ2 is superfluous. My statement at the top of the post is that this is about SURVIVAL.

Look at it from CN's point of view, if you would.

You have five games. How do you decide which one to kill. Do you kill the one that just had a producer recommend things that have demonstrated track records of earning profits? Or do you kill the other one that doesn't have that recommendation?

 

Consolidating servers will come. The populations do not warrant enough servers, and having a few mega servers gives them the ability to make more "event" style servers.

Free to play brings in people who do not want to pay to play the start. The few parts of data that I have seen about conversions after initial free to play seem to indicate that people do eventually pay for something. That something is worth the "price" of making part of the game available for free. Check out the study on Rotisserie Chickens as loss leaders if you are wondering about that.

Cash shops are the way to make a game constantly produce profits. Right now, they have a cycle of every month a batch of subs, plus yearly expansions. The cash shop gives them another flow of income. They aren't going to go away I am afraid.

 

I could have sworn that I read some threads where people were upset about the 0 broker fee box, but I can't find them anymore. I thought there would have been more of an uproar about that one as well.

Yeah, it was partly tongue-in-cheek and partly a real "why not do this and make yourselves some more cash" idea.

If I were CN I would keep around the consistent money maker regardless of producer recommendations.

I know it won't happen, but my hope is they sell off the EQ2 franchise to Standing Stone Games (The indie studio that just picked up DDO and LOTRO) and keep DBG around as the publisher. There I think the game has a better chance of survival.

I don't remember much of the details, but wasn't it run by a third party and not really given SOE's full attention and support?

 

No. No. No. No. **** NO. Sell us content, not the ability to bypass time sinks.