Interesting statement from Kander about F2P and expansions

Lets talk about Rift, I've never played it, however if its anything like Defiance (same company) its no where as close to being a rewarding FTP system as EQ2.

Defiance requires you to buy all DLC to use the items from the DLC (you can get them but you can't use them) and it relies heavily on gambling with very expensive (loot boxes) for the player to get better gear.

EQ2 on the other hand lets you quest and group and adventure all the way up to AOM for free. Sure there are annoyances, but that's a crap-load of content to enjoy without having to pay a single dime.

 

I played a teensy bit of Defiance when it first came out - and I've played a fair amount of Rift. They are very different games -- to me they almost felt like different genres (Defiance felt like FPS shooter game, even tho you could go 3rd person). Rift is a pretty awesome game actually - and for those who are addicted to shiny collections, Rift has 'em!

Nice zones, good lore, lots of questing, PvP for those who want it/but you never have to unless you choose to, very deep achievement system, I found the combat fun YMMV, crafting is about par for the course, hmmm sure there's more.

I'm not sure, but IIRC Rift adopted the practice of rolling older expansions into free content, with newest expansion at a price and preorder perks, packages, etc. I'm not playing Rift currently, but i would recommend it to someone looking for an alternative - pretty sure it has a decent f2p model, although if I plan to play a game I will sub and get the nice perks. F2P is a nice way to stick your toe in and test the waters, though.

Edit: Felt I really needed to add this about RIFT -- I am not a decorator so not speaking from personal experience, but others who play rave about the housing/decorating features in the game (called dimensions). So that might be of interest to many EQ2ers as well.

 

I've never played Defiance, so I can't compare that model to EQ2.

Rift is not even remotely close to what you describe, however. Much like the model for DCUO is not like EQ2, even though it's the same company.

Rift gives access to the game for free with all expansions up to and including the current one. Premium expansion features and soul packs (additional class roles) are available to purchase separately: for game currency gained through various in game means as well as credits (store cash). No cash is required (though it'll take some dedication to earn it), and none of the classes are required to play and enjoy the game any more than Beastlord in EQ2 (even though I love my Beastlord)

It's unfortunate that lotto boxes have made their way into many popular titles, and also unfortunate that's unlikely to change - especially not in games where they're now entrenched for years, like EQ2 and Rift. There are better and worse ways to introduce them. In Rift the majority of the gear items are special skins for equivalent gear you can get in game, and promotional appearance mounts. Not at all a requirement for game play.

Rift lets you group to quest and do game content, and with the ability to self auto-mentor on the go, you can nudge levels for more difficult Rift events and the like without making them trivial. It also has a working cross sever group finder that serves multiple functions: instant adventures, dungeons, and battle grounds.

Rift also includes basic quality of life functions for free that EQ2 requires a subscription for: out going mail, no chat channel restriction, no gear equip restriction, full guild function access (minus auto-promote to leader)

That's completely for free. There are 2 restrictions on free accounts that are lifted with a one time 10$ investment... like EQ2 used to have. That is the ability to post on the auction house, and a coin limit (a limit I've never reached, even subscribed).

Rift rewards everyone who monetarily supports their game via the patron loyalty point system. You get points for spending cash - on a subscription or credit purchase - and you are also rewarded for spending the credits.

Rift has a game pass purchase for non-subscribers, or cyclical players - 15 and 30 day, which can be gifted. In addition, they have a giftable credit package.

That isn't even getting into the subscription perks.

So I still wonder, where does the notion come from that EQ2 is the best? Compared to every other game, it's not the worst, but in an objective side by side comparison to other major titles with similar game features it's not the best.

 

I was going to edit my previous post, but I think this deserves it's own, since it has to do with game value as a whole, and not specifically the payment models.

Rift has account wide unlocks for wardrobe items, dyes, and some of the mounts (I know those from the crate are granted to the account, while mounts purchased with holiday currency are special edition and per character). This includes looted items and items purchased in the cash shop. The unlock happens as soon as it goes into your inventory, since the items are not consumed, nor do they have to be equipped, non-boa bits can be passed around among friends, and there are some folks that offer up especially nice ones in channels.

That might not be important to a lot of folks, but for those that like to dress up their characters, dye their armor, or collect mounts, it's really nice.

 

The restrictions on chat are there to keep low level ftp plat spammers away. With as many players DBG has drove away this expac, is it still needed? Probably not.

Mail restriction is there for the same reason as the chat restriction. And lets be honest, how often do we really use the mail system in game? Once or twice a month normally.

Guild restrictions? - what do you mean?

Broker restrictions - yes I agree they are stupid and need to go away, then again there hasn't been anything really worthwhile on the normal server's broker since the release of IoR.

Gear restrictions - yes they need to stay, There is so much good gear available that doesn't have restrictions, that requiring a sub to use the best of the best is fine in my opinion.

So lets see what you do get from not putting a dime into the game after downloading the client.

Access to the entire content up to AoM - so hundreds of hours worth of questing, exploring, harvesting and crafting.

Access to all gear (including the epic 2.0) except Prestige, access to all spell and ability levels up to Master (which even a lot of subscribers don't even bother getting... *sigh* )

The ability to read all chat, and use group and guild chat. The ability to receive mail. The ability to use voice chat.

The ability to be an officer in a guild and use the guild bank.

The ability to group and raid and take part in public events like Frostfell, NoTD etc.

So that's a metric crap-ton of stuff for free.

----------------------------------------------------

So with all that, if I had of started a f2p account a few months ago, I would probably pick up the half price KA expac to have access to the following.

Mercs, ToT and KA.

----------------------------------------------------

Enough content to have kept me busy since 2004 for next to nothing.

 

While you might not find outgoing mail useful, those who host venues, run RP events, run guilds, run raids... well I imagine most of those folks use it on the regular - I know I do.

RMT spammers haven't been a thing in EQ2 for a while, and even if they were, most other games have found a way to deal with it that doesn't punish non-spammers.

You asked how EQ2 didn't measure up to Rift as a free to play game, I provided that information both from play experience and the restriction/benefits pages for information. I didn't put in an opinion, just a side by side comparison of what Rift offers that EQ2 does not.

Your own post lists the same ways I indicated that EQ2 does NOT offer the same level of access to the game as Rift does.


Without spending a single dime in Rift you get access to:

The ENTIRE game. All of it. Not 'up to X expansion' - so hundreds of hours of game play, and zones that are still relevant for some expansion zone events, not discarded after use.

Access to ALL the gear and special abilities you earn - no restriction.

The ability to read AND chat in ALL channels - no restriction.

No restriction for guild functions other than a free account can't be auto-promoted in case of prolonged officer absence (yes, Rift actually does that).

The ability to group, raid, instant adventure, battle grounds - with a functioning cross server finder. In addition to year round public event like rifts, zone events, and an entire run of seasonal holidays.

So... even more than EQ2 offers - for free.

If you made an account today, you would have access to all of it, without having to pick up a single thing.

I didn't say EQ2 offers nothing, I just pointed out it doesn't offer nearly as much as other games, so falls short of 'best thing going'.

It's all numbers and not feels. If you like EQ2 better, that's a perfectly valid reason to play it, the only reason one should play a game, really. But. Subjective experience =/= objective observation.

 

I didn't compare the two games, I only stated why I think that the EQ2 ftp game is a generous one. Does Rift do it better? Sounds like it. Then again I can list a bunch of "ftp" MMOs I have played that do it much much worse. One of which I already mentioned, made by the same company who makes Rift.

I also don't remember anyone saying the finite "best thing going" I do however remember "one of the best things going" being said, which it most certainly is.

 

And I seriously can't see a ftp person doing any of that to be honest. I know I couldn't be the leader of my guild and be very effective as a ftp.

 

I think smed saw pretty flashy things and got greedy. That said, I don't think F2P/Micro really works unless a game has massive amounts of new players all the time. Instead of actually thinking about whether it all would work and what the F2P micro transaction world needed to succeed they decided to alienate subscribers to go after shiny things that don't work in a game like this.

I'm not saying F2P is bad, I think if implemented properly it could help grow the subscriber base, but that wasn't the goal. It was micro transactions.

 

Several hundred dollars for ascension GMs so you can be relevant isn't 'micro-transactions' or all the rest of you are secret lottery winners

 

A micro transaction is $5 or $10. What eq2 is doing is a paywall and cash grab.

 

The assertion I most often see is that EQ2 offers the most access for free to play, sometimes it's 'one of' but usually it's 'the'. That's what made me curious, because it's not only demonstrably not true, there is a fairly wide margin. I think it comes from a lack of experience.

Again, one company can have games with multiple models, some of which are better than others. DBG has a game with a better model than EQ2. And again, I didn't say EQ2 is the worst, it's average.

Because you can't see a free player utilizing a game function doesn't mean that they don't, or won't. From my own personal experience, I've often needed to send mail from my second account that, while silver, isn't consistently subscribed, as well as my main account that is currently subscribed, but isn't always when I don't actively play but still help with venues and activities.


My curiosity has been satisfied and I'm not interested in debating someone out of personal preference or emotional attachment. As I said, those are the best reasons to play a game.

However for me it becomes a problem when a company blatantly manipulates those feelings of nostalgia and attachment so they don't have to offer a substantial quality product - as seen with the current expansion, and what blip we've seen for the next one.

 

I guess that's another point we disagree on, I like KA.

And to clarify I had a much better time in KA then I did in DOF for example.

A lot of people seem to forget how lack luster that expansion really was, including how small it was.

*edit #2* Off the top of my head some of the MMOs I've played....

Neverwinter Nights (the old one and the new one)

Meridian 59

Asheron's Call 1 and 2

DAOC

SWG

EQ2

WoW

Lineage II

Defiance

Perfect World

Firefall

Atlantica Online

*edit #3* And the reason KA didn't piss me off, I had all the prerequisites done since had done all of them when they were current content. I enjoyed being rewarded for all the work in the past by not having to do it now.

 

I own KA because of the prestige house and the decoration items that you have to purchase the collector's edition to get. I've done the tradeskill content, but not the pve content.

I speak from observation of the forums at the time, chat channels at the time, and discussion on sites other than those controlled by DBG.

That some folks did, or did not, enjoy it has no bearing on the fact that it is objectively less content for the money than most previous expansions and less quality than previous expansions in regards to mechanics testing and the implementation of them.

The GU's are also less robust than in previous years.

Once is an occurrence, twice is the start of a trend. With the lack of information this year as well, I think it's safe to say 'last minute reveal' is now the norm, and given the heavy appeal to nostalgia (again), I expect a repeat of the reduced, unfinished, buggy as <edited for content> time gated content we got with KA.

Again, I don't argue personal preference. Enjoyment varies widely from one individual to the next, and some accept and excuse deceptive practice and poor quality longer than others.


~Game on!

 

Not relevant to the discussion, but it's fun to look back and see (also remember!) the games you've played. I'm sure I've forgotten some, but these are the ones I remember and played for 90 days or more.

Everquest - Everquest 2

Asheron's Call - Asheron's Call 2

Shadowbane

Vanguard

Star Wars Galaxies

World of Warcraft

Horizon's - at launch, and Istaria since

City of Heroes/City of Villains

Warhammer Online

Guild Wars - Guild Wars 2

Aion

Final Fantasy XIV

The Secret World - The Secret World Legends

Rift

Trove

Elder Scrolls Online

 

/thread derail on

Tekka, did you enjoy CoH? I've been following Ship of Heroes in development, small indie company but they appear to be good folks. I've not played the super hero genre before, but might be fun as a change.

/thread derail off

 

I absolutely loved City of Heroes. The costumes were really fun to play with, and later the power colors. I really enjoyed the power sets and how meaningful the customization was. Developing a build (hero-side) that could speed run the Positron Task Force duo (instead of a full team) was rewarding for me - I'm not the best at gear and stats and math, but I get there eventually.

If they opened it up again, in the same state NCSoft shut it down in, I would go back and play in a heartbeat - and recommend it to others.

There are a few teams out there working on a successor, Ship of Heroes is one. I will PM you with the others once I poke the spouse (who is following them) to get the names.



--And now back to your regularly scheduled threading!

 

I'm really interested to see if Ashes of Creation turns out to be all the dev team is promising it wants it to be. Only time will tell.

Pantheon looks ok, but, seems to me its really just going to be eq1 with a new engine and bells and whistles; i.e. very grindy.

At least both games promise to be sub games.

 

That is definitely the case. Them not adding new fabled content during KA was a bad thing. Instead we got expert zones and one Heritage quest, the reward they then broke for heroic players a few weeks later.

A few of the things they have done right during KA.

PQs, I've enjoyed all of the new ones (well except Fens) and the tinker-fest one was amazing.

The signature lines for adventurer and crafter were well done and fit well into the lore.

I really like the heroic instances, even though I am tired of them now due to the grind.

The biggest beef I have is the new way (since ToT, and even that was better than KA) they do ethereal events. I prefer the old run the zones and get your drop method, the coins should only be there in case you don't get lucky. Now the drops just don't happen (I'm thinking the chance is < 0.0000001%) and the coins are the only way to get the item you want. I also miss the old way that the ethereal items were a good selection of different items and could be sold on the broker or in SLR channel. I also hate that they did away with lesser versions dropping in advance solo zones.

 

Oh yeah, they failed to grasp the concept in every way possible. Totally agree