How Does This Happen?

As we have already seen in various discussions relating to this topic, some people will cycle through 20+ alts, collecting and dumping the auto-collected harvests into the depots. By the time they get through their alt army, it's almost time to do it again. That is not seeing the expansion, its a revolving door of logins and logouts. Self proclaimed "crafters" that are upset with the change on beta, should be angry at the "crafters" who abused their 20+ alts like revolving door factories, which is why this change is being made.

Having people go out and harvest to collect materials, rather than cycle through a hoard of alts, is a vastly superior solution, even if it derails the gravy train some self-proclaimed "crafters" have become accustomed to. I have no doubt that the rate of returns from harvesting, and the recipe requirements, will continue to be tweaked.

 

How is it an 'abuse' to use the ponies to harvest materials?
Why is easy access to the base materials for leveling and handcrafted goods a bad thing?

This is the thing that nobody has explained.... why is making the fundamentals needed to level crafting take hours to achieve a GOOD thing?
(ESPECIALLY in this expac where the adeventure xp via the quests is more generous then I have EVER seen it.)
How does making the base materials scarce improve crafting and/or make it 'better'?

 

That is not why the change is being made. Not to mention that behavior is FAR from the norm. Your opinion on the 'solution' is just that, and like many things, everyone is entitled to one.

Crafters DO go out and harvest, and rely on those harvests - as much or more - than the auto-harvesters. The ponies, goblins and guild harvesters are a supplement to their own harvests, especially for those who help support a circle of friends or their guild with materials. If you refuse to accept that fact, well no one will be able to change your mind.

In addition, the nodes are in a single, relatively small zone so manual harvesting has nothing to do with 'experiencing' the expansion - which is one of the main parts of the excuse that is being given. If you don't want to acknowledge that, it's fine - again, no actuality will change your mind.

 

I would be more on board with some of your points if you could avoid phrases like "self proclaimed" and "scrubs". The concerns being voiced here and on the DBforums are valid, even if you would choose a different path.

With great respect to our devs, I believe they are on the outside looking in on the tradeskilling world and may not truly understand the breadth and the effect of some of the changes. They have worked hard to make PoP immediately accessible to adventurers, which is awesome. However, tradeskillers are not even going to be able to earn XP (even discovery XP, the easiest there is) until after we've spent time simply flying around, landing, clicking, repeating. Over and over. And over. Even the ponies would NOT HAVE SIGNIFICANTLY CHANGED THAT in the early weeks of the expansion...it takes time and dedication to build up depots, and they definitely won't provide the rares that are likely to be needed.

The reason given, "to make us see the world", feels dismissive and doesn't acknowledge the fact that many *do* spend many hours out in the world harvesting...that is the only reliable way to get rares and special harvests. For those that enjoy harvesting, that option has always been there. For those that want to jump right in and get started leveling with their crafter, they are hosed with PoP. There's just no way to sugarcoat it.

People are already complaining that the adventure quests are going to be logjams with so many people doing the repeatables...and there are literally DOZENS of quests to choose from and multiple paths to take to help break people up across the world. Tradeskillers have no choice. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM has to harvest. No variety, no paths, no way to choose some other way to progress their character.

It will all be moot (hopefully) once the tradeskill questline is in and things get back closer to normal. But the situation right now is very far from normal.

 

Based on this definition:

noun: abuse; plural noun: abuses
1. the improper use of something. "alcohol abuse"

The Devs did not intend for the auto-harvesters to be abused by people rolling them out on 20+ alts, with a revolving door of log ins and log outs. Greedy people abused the system to the point the Devs had to step in.

I would offer full support to the Devs in regard to adding more nodes, and some more places to harvest in the new expansion. I encourage them to move away from players obtaining base materials from hailing NPCs.

It is human nature to have a greater appreciation of something that required more effort to achieve. The more they dumb down crafting, the less it means. And I personally want crafting to mean more than it does. That is why I believe making it take some effort to acquire a max level crafter, including returning to the era of base materials not being a foregone conclusion of bulk simplicity, makes it better.

 

Soo.... using ponies to gather materials.. which is the whole point of them.. is abuse..
And, because a very few people (comparatively) have spent time getting a bunch of them.. using those ponies is abuse... and so you feel it is justified to take them away from everybody...
By that reasoning, every adventurer should have had their plat stripped when a few people used plat exploits to get way more then they should.. since you seem to be equating sending out ponies with 'exploits'.

Also, on a side note, if some people DO spent ALL their time cycling toons to get mats from ponies... they aren't actually playing the game or affecting anything..
Also, how are these people 'greedy'? Do you think they sell them on the broker and get plat from them? Or is it 'greedy' to want have enough mats so they and their friends can level up their toons? I don't see where the 'greed' angle comes from.. or why you think a few 'greedy' people justify the removal from everybody.


On the 'achievement' side... harvesting isn't crafting.... and there is absolutely NOTHING satisfying about grinding writs until your eyes bleed to level... adding a harvesting time sink up front doesn't make it 'more rewarding'.
Leveling tradeskills isn't the reward.. it's the chore necessary to be able to do the satisfying part.. which is actually the ability to make useful items.

 

It is reasoning I seen provided by the Devs, when the change was queried. Unless I missed a post, or you had a private chat with the Devs, please share!

I must have never said I am someone who crafts, and harvests (I have, multiple times, but here we go again). I am someone who crafts and harvests.

As for circles and friends or guildies that relied on one person to get everything for them, it is time for said circle of friends or guildies to step up and contribute. It is an unacceptable justification for leaving a massively abused system in place, especially this early in the expansion. If someone is emo to the point of rage quitting because they can no longer provide bulk mats for their circle of friends or guilds, I call BS. I am more inclined to attribute their negative emotion to their personal greed.

I hope the Devs add more places to harvest in the coming expansion. Maybe even additional things like adding materials as body drops from running zones. I do not believe the solution to anything should ever be auto-harvesting NPCs.

 

I craft, harvest and adventure too. While I will be slowed down considerably by not being able to suppliment my harvesting with ponies, it won't prevent my leveling.. but it WILL prevent some people who JUST craft.

For the later part. I am firmly opposed to requiring adventuring materials as regular materials for tradeskilling. It cuts people who are just crafters completely out of those recipes. Especially with the crazy plat inflation that has happened in the recent years, there is absolutely no way those kind of players can even hope to get their hands on such materials. For special recipes... like the Skyshrine special recipes, it's not a problem.. but if it's for standard recipes it tells crafters, loud and clear, that crafting is not a valid way to play the game.. that they are, at best, just a means to an end for adventurers.

On the exploit/abuse side.. the devs have never, ever claimed the ponies were an exploit or abuse.. you did.

 

Yes, it is just as much abuse as it was to bring in a whole lot of brigands on a particular raid encounter, and stack up their HP debuff to wipe the floor with what was supposed to be a difficult mob. They used a skill to do exactly what the skill was coded to do. Why should they be punished for it?

If something is abused to a greater degree than intended or desired, the Devs will step in to correct it. Like it or not, auto harvesters reached that point.

Oh dear. Probably one of the worst comparisons you could have made to support your case, especially when considering the most significant occurrence of the plat exploiting. The people found abusing that particular exploit did lose all their plat, and/or were suspended, and/or were banned.

By your reasoning, if I was trying to equate sending out 20+ pack ponies with that particular plat exploit, I would be calling for suspensions, bans, removal of all raws, etc. I have not done such, therefore your assertion lacks merit.

On a side note, crafters profited plenty from the plat exploit mentioned above. I noticed you made no suggestion that crafters should lose all their plat, despite plenty of crafters profiting from that era. An interesting display of blatant bias.

Greed is an intense or selfish desire for something.

If someone has such an intense desire for something, they are willing to cycle through 20+ alts in what no one can honestly claim to be enjoyable gameplay, they are greedy. And it resulted in a situation where auto-harvesters are getting looked at by Devs, due to the way players are using them. Quite simple, all in all.

 

If it helps to clarify, I was referring to common mats, as a supplementary means of acquiring them outside of hacking at nodes. It was just an idea to throw out there, not the only way I think extra material acquisition could occur outside of auto-harvesters.

I enjoyed the system implemented in Skyshrine. Unfortunately, the drama it caused resulted in that style of crafting falling by the wayside in future expansions. RIP dragon bone arrows!

As for claiming it is abuse, well yeah. And I stand by it. If the Devs did not see it as an issue, as a form of abuse, they would have left them operational at the start of PoP. The fact they stepped in and done what they have, speaks volumes.

 

Why do YOU think using the ponies is abuse then?
If using them to bring back materials is abuse... how should they be used, in your opinion?

 

Hmm, good question!

Perhaps limiting the deployment of them to only 1 or 2 per paid account at any given time. That way, people can't abuse the system with 20+ alts. I would have suggested that on the main forums, but I doubt the Devs want to invest that amount of effort into the ponies.

 

So.. should people only be allowed 1 or 2 epic 2.0s per account as well? Only 1 or 2 top level adventurers as well.. so people with a bunch of toons can't 'abuse' daily missions and get extra chances at gear, tokens, planar fragments for epic 2.0 upgrades?

If you believe those are different, please explain why.

Side note: Accounts don't have to be 'paid' to be able to earn, get the pony.

 

The reason provided by Caith, on the beta forums, is that they want players out experiencing the content in the expansion zones - ignoring the fact that THEY ALREADY DO, and regardless of that, it's a single zone. There is nothing to experience once you've made the circuit a single time.

Nowhere did I make any claim to what you are, or are not. While you have all but accused most of the crafters who have expressed concerns of abusing amenities THEY EARNED. Not to mention the majority do NOT use them in the way that you suggest.

It's extremely arrogant for you to assume that friends and guildmates are freeloaders that won't contribute. Some folks have more time than others with RL obligations, or physical limitations that prevent them from playing as much, so they spend time being generous and harvest for others. It's called cooperation.


The system is not massively abused. That you keep asserting it as if it is fact, doesn't make it so. That you are inclined to attribute cooperation and generosity to personal greed, speaks far more to your own mindset than it does anyone else's.

That the devs aren't updating ponies and goblins at the start of the expansion in no way supports your assertion of abuse (the devs didn't say it was abuse, unless you're privy a conversation not on the forums!) - they're also not updating guild harvesters, which are a limited, paid amenity. It is more likely that they can't do it at this time (like so many other things).

Regardless, this change has already had a marked negative impact, and will continue to do so. Certainly some will bow their head and accept that this is just how things are now, but some will - some have already - expect better, and will find it elsewhere.

The Thing is not the pony. The pony is just the Last Thing.

 

The real question is, will they update the marketplace tradesman's satchels to include the new tier of harvestables? My money is on yes.

 

Guess they are having to cut the cloth even smaller to get something out the door.

 

Having 20 epic 2.0's does not allow you to cycle through your alts and get free stuff handed to you, for the almighty feat of logging in Character7, hailing an NPC, logging out, logging in Character8, hailing an NPC, and so on.

If every fabled epic 2.0 had a clickie effect that gave the player a random piece of top tier heroic loot, that was tradable, and people were cycling through 20+ alts in their guild halls to acquire stockpiles of the proceeds, you would have a point.

If every mythical epic 2.0 had a clickie effect that gave the player a random piece of top tier raid loot that was tradable, and people were cycling through 20+ alts in their guild halls to acquire stockpiles of the proceeds, you would have a point.

Your attempts of drawing a comparison failed, horribly.

You asked for my opinion on how they should be used. I answered.

 

You are grossly misrepresenting the pack ponies. They are not passed out for free to anyone. Each character that has a pony has to be leveled up, in addition they have to complete the series of quests. The ponies are EARNED through hours of leveling and questing.

There are players on the forums and in game chastising other players that complained about PQ's, Ethereal farms and the like for not 'gearing appropriately' and then bragged that with their Epic and related gear (that they earned) they could blow through the dailies in mere minutes.

Your attempt to dismiss Mermut's comparison failed on an epic level.

The ponies are not an abuse. Whether it's 1 or 100, they are legitimately earned and have been used legitimately in the precise way the devs implemented them. We get it, you have a pet peeve where they're concerned. The manner toward others - aggressive, demeaning and dismissive - in which you argue continues to expose that inclination toward personal greed mentality.

 

The reason is:
Quoting Caith: "For the most part, we want players out and experiencing the content in the expansion zones, not cycling through a dozen (or more) alts sending out NPC harvesters, at the very least at the start of the expansion cycle."

And I agree with that stated goal. The fact that people cycling through a dozen (or more) alts got a specific mention, means they identified it as a problem, thus supporting my position people have been abusing it.

As for what they experience after doing the circuit a single time, it is still a better game design than encouraging people to cycle through 12, 20 or more alts, to click on an NPC in the confines of guild halls.

They can continue to use their auto-harvesters for the content they earned it for, being KA and prior. Unless I missed it, there was never any guarantee they would automatically work with all content in the future. And if they did make that promise, it was a silly promise to make.

If they do contribute, there wont be a problem. People can continue to be generous, and cooperate.

It is being abused, else Caith would not have commented about it while providing the explanation. Ignoring this will not make it go away. People upset about this change should direct their resentment toward those who abused it, with their 12-20 alts.

Yes, it does support my assertion. And they don't need to call it abuse, it is so obvious a blind man could see it.

For anyone who moves on, I hope they have fun in where ever they spend their leisure time. EQ2 has been on a clear downhill slide since TSO hit, that isn't going to change any time soon.

How dramatic. The Thing!

 

As it stands, you're missing the mark to a degree you would miss the broad side of a barn.

I never claimed they were passed out for free, or that they did not require being leveled up. And as I said just above, they can continue to use them for what they earned them for, KA content. There was no guarantee made they would immediately work in PoP, unless I missed it.

As for PQs, Ethereal Farms, PGs, Epic weapons, and other stuff, would make for some great conversation, but not exactly relevant here.

I will continue to stand by my position, if the Devs had no concerns with players cycling through 12+ alts to click auto-harvesters, they would not have referenced it as a reason for the decision. That will not sit well with the passionate position some hold, it is what it is.