How Does This Happen?

In a discussion on the Other Forums about collections and how to avoid losing out on Tithe with the 10 point cap, Gninja said:

Pretty sure the cap was removed over a year ago but we will double check it to make sure. Regardless, please keep discussion about how things are and how things work to the beta forums so if they are not intended they can be fixed.

Tithe is capped at 10, and as of a few months ago, I still had an xp cap on collection turn ins (though once you get to higher levels, the xp required is so much greater it'd be very hard to hit).

So was I experiencing a throw back anomaly with the cap? Or does one of the main dev team members not know what mechanics are still in place (that might not be his department, but it seems like a general knowledge thing to me)?

The thread was then locked.

I didn't find the warning to be out of place at all. The expansion is scheduled to launch at the end of this month, and from the looks of things, they have a LOT of critical issues to sort out still, in that short amount of time. And it's not like they're going to hop on the forums and announce it if they DON'T get tithe cap changes done.

What do you guys think?

 

The lack of consistency is par for course from the EQ2 team.

1. They lock a thread discussing the functionality of turning in collections, an issue relevant to current and future expansions.
2. They seemingly have no qualm with a bunch of scrubs crying, because there is a chance they will not be able to cycle through auto-harvesting NPCs on their 20+ alts, in the next expansion.

Wish I could say I was surprised, but who would I be kidding at this point?

 

Maybe he was referring to the experience cap on collections?

Or maybe it was supposed to get done, and like a lot if things these days, it just didn't.

Was prob locked because it involved beta content.

 

Kinda surprised to see Gninja even in the main forums. He usually only surfaces to address broken script/exploit issues.

Really starting to get this feeling they are getting worried about sales over there.

 

Regarding tradeskillers: There are a lot of people who have put a lot of time, effort, and money into their toons and their accounts, be they crafters, raiders, roleplayers, or whatever keeps them occupied while running around Norrath. It's all part of the same world.

As someone who is a bit of all things, I can tell you that the state of tradeskilling is a bit rough right now, and these aren't scrubs whinging. These are people who have been playing for years and are actively testing in Beta now, some to a ridiculously thorough and detailed degree. They have leveled toons there through the only means available to them right now, forced to use tens of thousands of materials and to pay out hundreds to thousands of plat simply to level.

As I said elsewhere, imagine the reaction if adventurers were told there wouldn't be anything for them until after launch, and in the meantime the only way to level up would be to do the same adventure writ 150 times. To do this, you had to pay 8p to do each writ, and it would take hundreds to thousands of pieces of ammo for each one and you had to get that ammo from caches around the Plane of Magic in piles of 2 or 3 or if you are lucky, 13 at a time, all while competing with every other adventurer because this was the *only* source for the ammo needed.

We may not all be tradeskillers, but we are all gamers, inhabiting an imaginary world being kept alive by the money coming from fellow gamers of all types.

 

Which cap he was referring to is vague, but from my experience the xp still in place on collections as well. (Though I fully admit I could be misremembering or misinterpreting the behavior I saw)

The core of it, for me, is that the original poster (Wurm) gave folks a heads up that a single collection is hitting (possibly surpassing) the current tithe cap so they can take the appropriate measures (subtext my own, because I believe he was being helpful: in case it goes live that way).

Given that, from what we know from players and reading the beta forums, there is quite a long list of important to critical issues that haven't even been finalized yet, let alone implemented for test, three weeks before launch, I think it's pragmatic to be prepared.

I don't think it was appropriate for Gninja to chastise a beta tester(s) for informing live players to be aware, so that when the expansion launches - with or without a change - they can watch for it. Because as I said, it's not like they will announce that single quests and collections hit the tithe cap because it hasn't been changed, and players stand to lose a significant number of tithe points if they're not careful.

 

I don't think I have seen people claiming it is not a part of the same world.

As someone who is a bit of all things, I can tell you that the state of the entire game is very rough right now. As for whinging scrubs, I have seen several overblown tantrums because they can't cycle through their alt armies to amass materials. I call it how I see it.

Regarding material usage, some adjustments would be expected. To this end, the Devs are paying some attention to the topic, evidence by the increased node spawn rates. I support the stated goal the Devs are seeking to achieve, and hope they don't back down too far.

Spending thousands of plat on anything at this point, is trivial (more detail provided below).

8 plat a writ... Ignoring how easy it is to get plat in the game, lets see what that can translate to in a dollar value using a Krono as a base point for comparison.
1 Krono = $18
1 Krono = 1,400,000 plat
1 Krono = 175,000 writs
I believe that puts the value of the plat required for each writ at about 1/100 of a cent.
8 plat per writ may have been a big ask back in EoF, but that era is a long way gone.

Node spawn have already been increased, some bugs with recipe requirements are being investigated, and component volumes can easily change. It is hardly a fire and brimstone scenario. The Dev posts on the thread in the beta forums clearly shows it is being looked at.

In the imaginary world we inhabit, people will have different opinions on every topic imaginable. Agreeing on anything was never a strength of any gaming community.

 

People should not be expected to pay real money, beyond subscriptions, to gain basic materials. I could be mistaken, but it sounds to me like you're telling people who are primarily crafters to just suck it up and buy a krono so they can 'afford' mats in order to play the game they enjoy (crafting).

Unfortunately, I expect this change will bring back the (currently mostly extinct) bot harvesters. They used to be a big problem.
Ironically, the idea that regular mats should be 'worth something'.. ie be rare enough that people will buy/sell them just to level.. will actually drive DOWN the price of rares.. since they'll be much more common.

As far as the excuse of 'getting people out to see the new content'... that's what the timelines are for... except, since they didn't replace their TS dev, isn't going to be in until some undisclosed time AFTER the expac goes live.

With the front-loaded time sink this is going to put on crafting, all handcrafted gear will be totally useless by the time people can make it. Especially if crafters charge for their time, not just fuel costs.

I wish the devs would be 100% frank about WHY they're doing this and how it is a good thing for crafting. At least that way we'd understand their reasoning, even if we disagree with it.

 

These days, this company seems incapable of being frank about anything they are doing. I suspect it's because they are worried that it they do, they'll lose more sales.

 

I am not suggesting that. I have never purchased Krono from the SOE or DBG store, nor do I ever intend to. I simply used the value of a Krono to demonstrate just how insignificant the plat cost per writ actually is. If 8p was actually a significant amount, it would be worth a heck of a lot more than 1/100th of a cent in the realm of Krono sales.

The rate of rares is easily changed. I have no doubt they are keeping track of harvest rates on beta. Still early days to evaluate if it will result in a flooding of rares or not. And it is something that has been raised on the beta boards.

As for why they are doing it? They most likely said the reason why, just some people do not want to believe it, or accept it.

 

The fuel cost isn't the issue... it will be the mat cost if harvesting becomes... aggressive...
Turning crafting into contested dungeon style content is a huge change to how crafting has been for years. And the majority of 'crafters' have zero interest in that kind of game play.

 

The only constant in life, is change.

I did not claim fuel cost was an issue. It was a point that others have raised multiple times (here and official boards), so I addressed it in the context of actual value, or demonstrated lack there of.

The Devs are in a pickle regarding the game, Dev resources are stretched thin. They simply can't meet demand, and can't make everyone happy. It's been this way for years, its just more noticeable now. The whole expansion shows clear signs of being massively "rushed". If they stop work on the adventuring content to focus on making a handful of devout crafters happy, would the end result be better, or worse?

I personally enjoy the concept of raws/supplies being more akin to days of old. I could make some nice coin selling mats in the start of PoP, but I suspect I will be even better off if I use the mats to work on my crafters. Harvesting raws could be a great way for people recently back into the game to get a foot in the economy. And I am confident that when the crafting timeline is released, my crafters will love it. This is why as someone who harvests and crafts, I am not upset about the current situation.

For the options the Devs realistically had at their disposal, I believe they are making a reasonable decision.

 

I agree.

The excuse they gave for the change is that they want the crafters to 'go out and see the expansion' - which in and of itself is an indicator of just how out of touch the team - as well as some players - are with the crafter base. Otherwise they would know that crafters are already out 'seeing the world' and spend a good amount of time physically harvesting for rares and the upgrade stuff.

If the actual concerns of the crafters on the auto-harvesters were being listened to then the team would also know that a fair number, if not the majority, of crafters with multiple ponies and goblins don't 'amass a stockpile' of materials until much later in the expansion because they provide for not just themselves, but friends and guildmates - who have multiple crafters but don't harvest. No one is 'butt-hurt' over not being able to roll around in heaps of materials Scrooge McDuck style - they're upset that they physically won't have time to provide enough materials for themselves and their friends to level in a timely fashion.


I don't buy the excuse, however. I think it's part of a much more critical issue: lack of resources. No signature timeline for crafters, no quests at all for crafters. No recipes for an entire trade when beta launched - because the art hadn't even been decided on yet. And that's just two out of a huge list. This is supposed to be pre-launch beta of a professional dev team and it looks more like a last minute high school computer science project.


I think the team has the best of intentions; they just lack the resources to do what's needed. And there are players that will defend it, and focus on a single issue, often to the exclusion of others. This wasn't always the norm, but just like the KA train wreck was the best the game was going to be at that point (going forward), the low that PoP has sunk to will be the best it will be (going forward), etc et al.


The team will never be 100% frank about the lack of development resources they have, which I believe is the actual root of the problem and the current state of the game.


Edit: They didn't have time to put together tradeskill quests and a signature. And they don't have time to mess with the auto-harvesters. IF - and it's a big if - they find the time, we'll see what is added or changed.

 

And because they are not frank, they are losing sales.

 

Uhm... they're spending more time trying to adjust the nodes, etc, then it would take to add the new tier to the ponies and guild harvesters... this isn't a 'time issue'.

Side note: I enjoy harvesting.

Yeah.. except upgrading the ponies and guild harvesters is way less work then messing with the nodes in the zone...
That part isn't a 'lack of resources'.

 

I definitely agree with this. I still believe that our devs are passionate about the game, but they are stretched so thin that things are having to be triaged and prioritized. I just wish they could be a bit more upfront.

There will always be trolls and er, "those with strong opinions", but I feel like many would be more understanding if they came out and said "We are trying, but there isn't enough time in the day. We promise you we are listening and working and we'll update you as we can". And then follow-through with updates and progress, don't keep us in the dark.

Like Kander's recent 'fessing up about the two-handed crossbows...it was a bummer, but they got out in front of it and owned it. The counter-example: the promises of spell consolidation that turned out to be off the table for months. You need to treat the players as partners, not as adversaries (deliberate trolls and stuff-stirrers notwithstanding, of course).

 

I would be careful about backseat game developing. Having been on the other side of things, what seems simple from the front of the screen isn't always as straightforward as we would think. At this point, I honestly believe that if it were "simple", the devs would be considering it.

I think tradeskilling and all of the interdependencies are far more complex than many realized; losing Domino meant losing a subject matter expert. The others are now having to figure out some longstanding and deeply-ingrained stuff that gave even Domino pause at times.

/bows head in respect for the advocate tradeskillers had in Domino
/raises head and sends a nod to DenMum for continuing to advocate for the community

 

I've been on the other side as well.. as well as on the QA side.
It's possible I"m wrong, but it should be just a table addition and a conversation node... That would be the most efficient way to code it.. especially since they've had multiple tier upgrades in the past.

That being said, its clear the tradeskill stuf isn't as organized as it should be. I'd have expected that the recipes would be more plug and play by now as well... so perhaps they do have a bunch of ugly code that they haven't had the time and/or inclination to streamline to make update much easier. I've seen my share of THAT kind of chaos too

 

I could have worded that more clearly - I count knowledge of code as part of resources. It is well known that the code for EQ2 is a hot mess, and always has been. I suspect that in the past, with a larger team, there were folks that worked with just a small part of the code that pertained to their area of expertise. Now that there is no tradeskill dev - and a drastically smaller team over all, I think it's actually probable that they don't know how to do it yet - and don't have the time to sort it out.

We won't know, because I doubt they would ever admit it. But I'd rather think it's something of that nature than the devs actively trying to wreck a community to jack-boot their 'vision' of the game, instead of what players want to play.

 

Agreed. I see some people saying the devs are actively trying to scuttle the game, but that seems a bit over the top. I know how passionate they are about it (besides, few people want to actively sabotage their source of income).

I agree with you and Mermut, that it's more likely the effect of being stretched crazy thin and having to take on things that in the past had entire teams to wrangle. Here's hoping that passion and some optimism can keep Norrath fun for a (long) while...