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EQ2 Producer's Letter

Discussion in 'EverQuest II General Discussion' started by Feldon, Jan 25, 2019.

  1. Feldon

    Feldon Administrator Staff Member

    6. These mechanics are a trainwreck of complexity and confusion and the in-game UI makes managing even one character feel like clerical work.
    7. Even if you really wanted to teach yourself how all these stats work, there's no fan sites left that document things.
     
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  2. Errrorr

    Errrorr Active Member

    Honestly they aren't that bad, unless you're coming back from like not playing for 5 years and not willing to google a few things.

    There is plenty of info (Non-Official) out there, and even more if people just ask. Problem is the people who struggle are usually those who can't be bothered to look. In a 10+ year old MMO, there will be some learning required. It's not like a solo game where you pick it up and just play it.
     
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  3. Errrorr

    Errrorr Active Member

    Just wanted to QFE.

    EQ2Flames was horrific in 90% of it's postings, but the class forums were usually a very good source for info.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  4. Meneltel

    Meneltel Active Member

    Long ago, during classic in WoW, Warlocks were so bad at pvp that they were considered a free honor kill (Paladins were worse, if a lone paladin met a Horde, he used a shield to hearth because at a one on one, he was outnumbered! But I digress) that many would not kill a lone warlock out questing. More than once I got a rogue to appear, wave at me and then vanish, leaving me in peace. All Warlocks had was a Fear spell to drive off attackers, for the most part. I only got attacked by a rogue that I can remember who kept jumping me, but since I had lots of health, I survived and since I ran with an invisible Succubus who then charmed him (crowd control), my group mates could take their time to dismember him. He attacked me 4 times in 15 minutes only to die from my friends! After that, I think it wandered off in shame. Later, I became known as a pvp lock in my guild. It was dedicated to pvp (on a pvp server, no shock) but I was the only warlock that would go running if told I was needed. I didn't like pvp, but I was a team player.

    So, yes, accords CAN work but you will always have exceptions to the rule. You just make a note of them and pass them on to those on the other side about the attacks and the details and let them handle it. As long as you are fair about it. Had one Alliance rogue yell for help from Horde... only to find out he had been stunning and mocking his victim repeatedly. So I left him to die repeatedly later once I found out his actions (from him, no less!). I got tells from Horde members later on their alliance alts thanking me for doing the right thing.
     
  5. Fuli

    Fuli Well-Known Member

    Well, to be fair, Just Curious is entitled to express his own opinions and challenge ours, just as we do to others.

    This isn't an echo chamber like the OF tend to be.

    Nothing wrong with debate :)
     
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  6. Fuli

    Fuli Well-Known Member

    IMO, the design INCENTIVIZES bad behavior.

    That's the problem.

    Which is why pve with pvp doesn't work. If you are going to make a pvp offer, you have to start with pvp systems, and then figure out how to make pve systems work within that framework.

    SOE approached the problem from the wrong side, by trying to drop pvp into their existing pve world.

    What would have been better is to build the pvp framework, and then bend the pve systems to accommodate it. Or, do like ESO and other have done, and separate the environments.

    Now, at this point, I can hear all you code writers going....."Um, that's twice the work...not practical, Fuli"

    Yep.

    P.S. As an example of the futility of this poorly conceived pvp experiment, see the latest "How to fix the balance problem thread".

    It appears chrono time warps really are a thing :)

    My Proposed Solution to Damage Imbalance (limited math) | EverQuest 2 Forums
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 2
  7. Feldon

    Feldon Administrator Staff Member

    You know Kander tried this sh!t on me.

    "Detailed mechanics are for min/maxers. You can just take the freebie gear and dungeon drops and not understand most of the mechanics and do 'just fine'." Well that is NOT acceptable to me. When I started playing EQ2, you could look at the tooltips, read the spell descriptions, and look at the item stats, and you could TELL WHAT WAS HAPPENING. You cannot do that today. The mechanics are a cluster. The tooltips lie. The item windows tell half the story. And the fan sites that used to explain this stuff are gone.

    Only a dev could defend a design strategy where the average player should just expect to have no idea what the f*ck is going on. I don't WANT to play a game I don't understand. We're not "meant" to understand? F*** you.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
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  8. Feldon

    Feldon Administrator Staff Member

    Google where?

    I think it's hard for someone in your position (well-known expert in EQ2 mechanics) to understand what it is like for the average player who wants to group and actually grasp what's going on in the game. It's like if you were an electrical engineer and you cannot fathom that there are people who don't understand Ohm's Law. It's really NOT that simple, it's just something you know incredibly well. The higher your skills get in a topic, the harder it is to have a realistic expectation of everyone else.
     
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  9. Fuli

    Fuli Well-Known Member

    Kander is upholding the long-standing SOE/DBG policy of trying to spin crap into not crap, and shift responsibility for their development and business practices onto their customers.
     
    • Agree Agree x 8
  10. Meneltel

    Meneltel Active Member

    Sh!t flows downhill... and DBG insists that all players must live in the valley.
     
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  11. Just Curious

    Just Curious Member

    I am not an expert on the mechanics and would never claim to be. Hardcore players can min/max to their hearts' content. I don't need to understand all the mechanics because I'm not one of them. That being said, I am being successful with only a little extra effort.

    For my first toon through the CD signature line, I used the gear out of the box. I got through with no need to understand anything other than my skills and spells.

    For my second toon, I took a harder look at the free adornments on the gear in the box and realized that some of them didn't make sense for my toon (i.e. defensive skills on a caster). I deleted those, got more free adornments from the box, and put them on my gear. I got through the signature line more quickly. Again, all I needed to understand were my skills and that as a DPSer I needed to focus more on doing damage. Hardly a complex concept.

    For my most recent toon, I decided to try the Visionary MG gear. I flew through the signature line, started doing the weeklies and the dailies, and am now in T2 heroic groups.

    Being at the top level of the game probably requires a lot more understanding of the underlying mechanics. I don't play the game to be the best of the best of the best. I am an average player and I'm still successful. If you want to understand everything and get pissed off because you don't, well that's on you. I'm perfectly happy just playing the game.
     
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  12. Castegyre

    Castegyre Active Member

    Cryptic/Paragon Studios is my go to example of why the players should have the numbers and know how the mechanics work. They started out being purposefully vague with the mechanics and the math because they didn't want to ruin player emersion and ended up eventually giving nearly all of that information to the player base. That decision basically was a win for everyone with happy players and an easier time for the devs. Even the most scrub player likes to know what's happening when they punch a bad guy in the face even if they don't min/max.

    They're one of my two favorite dev teams for any MMO I've ever played, though. SOE/Verant/DBG are not even in the top 5.
     
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  13. Mizgamer62

    Mizgamer62 Active Member

    The tone of the post is what I have a problem with. It was written in a condescending and sarcastic manner. They were singling out Meneltel specifically rather than just arguing about generalities. Otherwise, I agree with being able to respectfully voice one's opinions. I have seen way to many of these passive aggressive or some times targeted attacks on the official forums to last me a life time.
     
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  14. Feldon

    Feldon Administrator Staff Member

    No it's not "on us" that we point out the destructiveness of design decisions which are completely within the team's power to change. Nobody in management is telling the devs to "add mechanics that you have to be a min-maxer to understand". They could have continued to give us linear sensible progression. Instead it's "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" all while growing player power 10-15 times every 6 months.

    Through Kunark and TSO, I was a mid-level heroic player and did some light raiding. I understood the mechanics. That's no longer possible for all but the min-maxers.

    I suppose it's good that there are players who enjoy the game without having the foggiest idea of what the numbers mean. If there weren't, the EQ2 devs would be on the bread line. But I've always wondered... if you don't care what the numbers mean, what do you do with dungeon drops? Your posts remind me of Kander's "if you don't like it, don't play it."
     
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  15. Meneltel

    Meneltel Active Member

    I just presumed it was an anti-fanboy and responded politely. No need to get upset, especially over a game that I care very little about anymore. I had lots of fun in EQ2 but not in the last few months. I play a MMORPG to group and have fun with friends, not run solo missions, even if part of a storyline. I am having fun in Shadowbane and I have yet to group for longer than 10 minutes at a time, and no friends yet. And since once you reach lvl 20, you are now, for the most part, a gankable target out of town, friends are really helpful! Ill get some eventually.
     
    • Appreciation Appreciation x 4
  16. Just Curious

    Just Curious Member

    Reading "tone" in a post is usually a mistake.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Fuli

    Fuli Well-Known Member

    P.S. i just wanted to add a quick clarification to my comments about design.

    Hindsight can be 20/20. I don't begrudge the team for trying pvp the way they originally did.

    What is baffling is the stubborn resistance (on the part of both players and DBG) to learn from its failure.

    Of course, that problem persists in all kinds of ways at this company, and so we at least, should not be surprised that they continue to do stuff like this :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  18. Just Curious

    Just Curious Member

    It's not exactly the most brilliant thing said by someone who ought to be trying to sell a product, but I don't think anyone has ever accused him of having business savvy. That said, he has a point. If you aren't having fun, move on. There really are plenty of games out there.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. Fuli

    Fuli Well-Known Member

    In Feldon's defense, he's running a service here that supports their game, no small part of which is providing consumers of both eq2u and eq2 with useful and credible information that they can use to build their characters and enhance their game play. The more corners they cut, and the more they try to hide things, the more work they impose on him and players to try and figure out what is really going on (if they can at all).

    As for myself, I don't like how they treat their customers, and believe the quality of what they are selling is atrocious, so I stopped buying it.

    But more specifically, I don't like the deceptive practices and the predatory-like behaviors, so I post here, and occasionally on the OF.

    I almost got hooked into the new pvp thingie, but I'm glad I waited to see the feedback.
     
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  20. RhodrisNZ

    RhodrisNZ Geographically Challenged

    Isn't that the definition of insanity - to do what you've always done, but expect a different result?
     
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