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What would it take for you to feel confident/optimistic about the future of EQ2 again?

Discussion in 'EverQuest II General Discussion' started by Shmogre, Dec 28, 2017.

  1. Fuli

    Fuli Well-Known Member

    Agree with all that. I guess the problem i speaking to is that it's been asserted that staff doesn't even know where to look for stuff, and, have to guess at the theory behind it once they find it
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Semperfidelis

    Semperfidelis Member

    You're right, this situation does need a good resolution.

    One way some places deal with it is by modifying periodic bonuses by how well someone documents their changes. Or by having the manager of the group document (or the ever-dreaded project manager), or by having a documentation team that doesn't program but also does QA. It's always best to have the programmer be benevolent and explain, but there is a benefit to having the QA team do it (like Dizzy said, their assumption for why it works might be wrong). All of the methods for documenting with other people require qualified programmers to go untapped for actual coding. It's where the entry level "should" be but it's not always the case because business thinks it's overhead, but it's really not.

    I've seen them hire English majors for QA, nice thought about the literature and writing ability, but not always the article you need. A Philosophy major with a focus on formal / diagram logic, and the ability to read code is a better choice. Gives the philosophy majors something to do too. Ditto math majors who did not become physicists, business majors who enjoyed and took extra database programming (but you're going to lose them as soon as they get an MBA), there are probably other good fits, anyone with a well developed critical thinking nerve. :) People who went to law school but didn't complete it too. In QA, they have a huge edge because they can treat language as code.

    I don't actually know that they don't have a QA team already doing all this. I'm just talking in general about solutions to the lack of documentation problem in many work places.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. Feldon

    Feldon Administrator Staff Member

    So we seem to be digging deep into EQ2's programming. But is that EQ2's primary problem? I peeked at the "How to talk to Developers" thread on the official forums but it's so focused on programming and methodology of addressing bugs! We've had some exceptional programmers on EQ2 including Autenil (Josh K), Zoltaroth (Nandy S), and Maevianiu (Dave Kish). But there are only 2 (formerly 3) programmers on EQ2 and they're doing their jobs.

    To me it is the designers that are making these decisions that are making EQ2 "not fun". And there are 10+ of them on EQ2. SOE got many of its designers by promoting customer service and community people. They didn't want to pay market rates so they didn't hire much from outside. I don't know where you go to get good game designers. I think most companies hire from other companies which is why developers rarely speak negatively about their company.

    As for new talent, there is no curriculum for game design, at least there wasn't until the last few years as for-profit schools have spun up programs. I bet such degrees are still viewed with a certain dubiousness by game companies, but maybe this has changed. Being a good game designer is multidisciplinary. You have to be creative, be able to explain your ideas, be your own writer and story editor. You also have to be a statistician and understand game mechanics and laws of probabilities.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Appreciation Appreciation x 2
  4. Errrorr

    Errrorr Active Member

    Programmers/Techies are generally fine with doing documentation, if given time to do it. Just in 99.99% of the situations, you make the fix and are asked to fix the next thing before you could do the documentation.

    If you try document along the way, you take too long and get told to speed up.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  5. Fuli

    Fuli Well-Known Member

    Well, the state of the game today is the result of a lot of entangled nonsense.

    For example, Kander's excuse that class rebalancing would fundamentally change how the game is played was a huge pile of bullshit (ascension system = Ok, class balancing = Not ok).

    Translation: "I'm not interested in looking for, unpacking, and trying to fix this mess"

    My assertion all along is that I'm not blaming the worker bees for the state of things. It's the decision-makers/managers who are the problem.

    If code is undocumented because time doesn't permit it, management is the problem.

    If people aren't documenting code because they are behaving strategically, management needs to reign that behavior in.

    If customer feedback about game design decisions is being ignored - management.

    If stuff needs to be fixed - management needs to see that it's done.

    Honesty, candor, earnest and respectful communication - management should be responsible for enforcing the reputation of the brand.

    Pricing strategy and marketing tactics.......Producer.


    Throw it all into the blender, press spin, and every 12 months dump a bunch more crap into it, press spin......eq2.

    Let the devs work on designing fun and fixing problems with the game.

    Let marketing people interface with customers and create sales.

    Imho, all the issues can be tracked back to how this franchise has been managed pretty much from day one.

    This falls on producers and project managers/lead designers.

    They are the problem and ultimately responsible for the state of the game today.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. Fuli

    Fuli Well-Known Member

    I guess, the short story version is: this franchise has, and mostly has had over the years, poor management of resources.

    All kinds of pathological little threads entangled themselves into the giant mess we have today.

    In my 25 years, first as a banker, and then a business economist, I've worked with hundreds of businesses.

    Every business has disfunfunction, including my own practice.

    Generally speaking, in such cases, it is helpful to realize:

    1. Falling sales means problems exist.
    2. Objectively search for the problems.
    3. Resolve to understand and fix them.

    It is generally not a good idea to say "f*** you, we do what we want" and then manufacture ways to dupe people into over paying for poor quality.

    This can work in the short run, but always costs a lot more to the brand over time.

    Reputation is important.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Mermut

    Mermut Well-Known Member

    Yes, and no.
    Back when I worked QA, I was the one who chased down the devs to make sure they did basic things like document what new features they added or what bug their lastest 'fix' was supposed to address. Many needed reminding, most were good about it when reminded, but some required 2x4s, duct tape and threats against their coffee and sugar supply to get them to do even basic documentation ;)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Khendrask

    Khendrask Active Member

    Management?
    What management?
    DBG is a shell holding company completely owned by what is basically a Russian land and resource management company.
    Columbus Nova doesn't give a fart in the wind about what happens with DBG, it is probably just a convenient place to launder money, or because it is a loss-leader, a nice way to reduce US taxes for the CN company.
     
  9. IakeFD

    IakeFD Member

  10. Fuli

    Fuli Well-Known Member

    Software knowledge requirements for the data analyst is Exel.

    Is this 1994?

    Machine learning is the future of data science. In any case, they don't even mention a requirement for a background in statistics.

    Job description looks to me like an accountant in charge of tracking clicks.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
  11. Endymion

    Endymion Active Member

    • Funny Funny x 1
  12. IakeFD

    IakeFD Member

    look at all the positions for "Unannounced Project" though, gosh!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Dizzy

    Dizzy Active Member

    As I mentioned earlier they are trying to spin up the next big thing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
    • Appreciation Appreciation x 1
  14. Dizzy

    Dizzy Active Member

    In regards to game designers it seem a number of good ones came from a background in Multi User Dungeons (MUD's). I often read Raph Koster's web site and blog Raph's Website He had some interesting link there to MUD design rules of thumb and some of the presentations from GDC.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  15. Semperfidelis

    Semperfidelis Member

    Quite so. I do kind of wonder why they don't seem to have a paid official PR arm. Or not one I can see (I know this site was semi official until recently with fan-dev communication, but I'm not good at the internals of such arrangements). They make use of Twitter. And I've seen articles on Massively that are pretty good. But tbh, some of the official advertising and PR channels are kind of meh. I figured out within a couple of days how to run PGs but some of the game media coverage of it was really odd. Not naming names but I remember watching part of an hour long video that was mostly drama and "oh noes, what do I do now?" It's not the kind of thing I find useful as a player. If they had some official site to give insider advice it would really make me happy.

    I think the reason it doesn't exist is the fluid nature of "is it a bug, a feature, or exploit?" I think to have something like that, they'd have to admit that the game changes - sometimes without warning - and they also change their minds about what is "ok" in the game and what isn't. It's a game, adjusting to new conditions is part of it. We also should accept that the game as it is today may not be the same tomorrow, and trust that they do have valid reasons why they did some things.

    TLDR: We need to respect their reasons, they need to respect our potential disappointment or happiness at changes. If that can happen online PR is likely to be less toxic.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
    • Like Like x 2
  16. Fuli

    Fuli Well-Known Member

    Lots of openings requiring console experience. Smed's vision....it lives!
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  17. Semperfidelis

    Semperfidelis Member


    Wonder if anyone remembers the PS2 game, Champions of Norrath. It's number 1 on my list of most addictive and fun games. I'd play a console game that had a fantasy theme and some mild cheating mechanic. In CoN you could "copy" items but it didn't help you much because the bosses assume you were copying and were respectively tougher. Actually possibly the reason I enjoyed it so much was because you almost had to figure out how to get the best items in order to do some of the bosses, I'm not sure I could go in there now and take down Innoruk's avatar, even with cheats, it was a challenge.

    Also it had 3 levels. Once you finished it once, you could do it at a harder level. If you had a completed character (level 50?) then you could take it into the next game CoN 2. That was fun, but it also had a harder version of the jumping game that showed up again in one of the Ethermere dungeons. It really held back my ability to alt and play each class through the game because I was like... sigh, not this again. Not that it couldn't be done, but I didn't do it. Anyway that was a fun game and I still won't delete it off my memory cards. Some day if I get too sick to play online, my vision goes or something, I might rekindle that.

    When I "take a break" from gaming online it usually involves a revisit of Midevil, CoN, or The Bard... sometimes Dungeon Keeper, if I can find a PC to run it in my parts hospital. GOG.com is my best friend.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Sweatypie

    Sweatypie Active Member

    Maybe if they payed me I would try the LIVE servers again.

    Maybe.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  19. Mizgamer62

    Mizgamer62 Active Member

    Probably some EQ/Zombie combo game :p.
     
  20. Occam

    Occam New Member

    Wait... are the drugs for the devs or the players? ;)
     
    • Funny Funny x 1

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